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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2015 10:08:06 GMT
Disappointing result against Boro but we've got bigger fish to fry this season. Palace are going to be a dangerous side but they tend to be more dangerous against the bigger sides away from home because they play completely on the counter. They may try and take the game to us at home which should enable us to pick them off. Either way I'm expecting a tough game. I'm going to put up 2 sides I'd go with. The first is the actual lineup I think we should be going with, the second is the lineup in which we have to accommodate the undroppable Rooney. De Gea Darmian Jones Smalling Rojo Schneiderlin Herrera Lingard Mata Young Martial Palace are excellent out wide. Full of pace and power. I think Darmian might find life a little difficult if he's only got Mata helping him out so I'd play the more energetic and hard working Lingard. I think if they see our starting lineup and it's Darmian-Mata on the right, they'll definitely look to exploit us there. I don't think it's necessary to play Schweinsteiger in this game. I think it's an ideal game to test out the younger and more mobile midfield pairing of Schneiderlin and Herrera. It also enables us to get Mata into that number 10 role and basically just give him a free role. I don't see Lingard starting though, he's just played 120 minutes of football. The defence and keeper stays the same in the 2nd team, my front 6 with Rooney would be: Schneiderlin Herrera Rooney Mata Martial Young I don't see Rooney as a number 9 or a number 10 anymore. If he has to play I think we're best to play him in the position we criticised LVG for playing him last season. When you think about his form this last 18 months or so, his most consistent period of performances actually came when he played as part of that midfield 3 last season. For some reason he can't do short, simple passes but when he has the ball at his feet with the attack in front of him he's still excellent at spraying the ball about. He's still as hard working as ever and will track back and help the defence all day. He'll also be much harder to pick up in an attacking sense if he's arriving from deep. I know I said I don't like the idea of Mata/Darmian on the right vs Palace but in this formation Herrera will be the guy to help out Darmian as he was the guy helping out Valencia last season in this formation. Enable Mata to again enjoy a free role and not really worry about the defensive side of the game.
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Post by Mani Khatra on Oct 29, 2015 10:55:54 GMT
I prefer the first team. But we all know wayne is undroppable at the moment in LVGs eyes so hope fully he goes with the second system with him in midfield
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Post by spens1 on Oct 29, 2015 11:36:22 GMT
we need to win and we need to show we can score goals, Palace are always a dangerous side, especially on the counter. Zaha is one to watch (i really feel he could have been good at united, alas he's been great for palace).
Defensively we need to remain solid
need schneiderlin and herrera starting, Herrera either next to Schneiderlin as some sort of box-to-box or a CAM.
Oh and drop rooney the same way we dropped our peruvian flute player, it would also show intent that anyone is expendable if they're playing shit, even one of our best and the captain
Difficult away fixture but if we are to seriously challenge we need the three points, we have fallen short at almost every point we've needed to prove ourselves as title challengers (except maybe the bounce back at everton). Need to go out there with some hunger and win this one and win big
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2015 11:52:03 GMT
I'd have the first team but with Rooney in for Mata as part of an experiment
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Post by Dave on Oct 29, 2015 13:54:19 GMT
Prefer the first team, maybe be one or two changes given the efforts yesterday.
Rooney's got to be dropped for me, offering little to the team, been next to no threat upfront and Palace have a handy pairing at the back. Hopefully a spell on the sidelines will give him a kick up the backside.
If he plays then behind Martial/third midfielder is the only place for him.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2015 15:00:37 GMT
It's starting to get ridiculous. Sacrificing the team for no other reason I can think of besides he can't drop his captain. It's absolute nonsense. I thought LVG had more bottle than this. All the big managers make these kinds of big decisions when big players aren't performing well. Fergie always did it. Then you look at just this season, Mourinho is a cunt but he's not afraid to take big players out if they're not pulling their weight.
Surely he sees how bad he's playing? My biggest worry is that he actually thinks Rooney is performing well.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2015 15:12:20 GMT
It's not as cut and dried as that with Rooney though, he needs games to get himself up and running, which is why Fergie always went the extra mile with him when he slumped because he knew he'd play himself out of it (until they fell out that is). VG has obviously been given the player history from Giggs, and most likely seen the tapes, but how long do you realistically give him?? Personally I'd start getting worried mid November time.
By my reckoning that gives a couple of weeks for tinkering with the forward line. Obviously it can't go on indefinitely 'cause it'll cost us any chance of winning anything if it carries on into the new year.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2015 15:17:20 GMT
I think he's already had enough time. He's been played at 9 and he's been played at 10. Peforming terribly in both positions. Fortunately it hasn't cost us a great deal as yet. We're still just 2 off the top in the league and on course in Europe but as you say it can't go on indefinitely and I think the time has already come where he needs to be taking him out of the firing line.
I'm not saying he should be dropped completely but he should not be starting every game. The biggest issue is the apparent lack of competition for him, it's like no matter how bad he plays he's not going to get dropped which can't be good for Rooney's mentality as well as the rest of the team. He needs to know that he's dispensable.
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Post by Mani Khatra on Oct 29, 2015 16:05:12 GMT
I get what you are saying Ed but normally wayne would be firing by now. He needs to be dropped for atleast as a kick up the back side
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2015 16:12:59 GMT
The flip side of that is what Scholes said about the service into him being shit because of how risk averse VG has them playing. VG will deny that he tells them to be that way, and probably doesn't, but it's certainly a by-product of possession based football. We're now excellently organised defensively as a team but not the other way yet, VG hasn't quite got that balance right just yet. I know what he wants, he wants defend as one unit, attack as one unit, like Barca.
To quote Scholes:
'I was at the Manchester derby and I watched him (Rooney) for the first 20 minutes,' he said.
'His movement was brilliant but when he's playing in that team there's nobody prepared to pass to him. You'd be tearing your hair out.
'Ruud van Nistelrooy, Teddy Sheringham, Andy Cole couldn't play in this team. You don't get crosses in the box, midfielders looking for runs. I think its a very difficult team to be a centre forward in.'
'I actually think the team is brilliantly coached to defend. I think the hardest thing to do is to coach scoring goals, creativity and to have players who are off the cuff.
'It's a team you wouldn't want to play against and its probably a team you wouldn't want to play in either.
'There's a lack of risk and creativity. It seems he doesn't want players to beat men and score goals - it's not a team I would have enjoyed playing in.'
So I wouldn't say it's ALL Rooney, it's six of one, half of the other with a bit of shit form thrown in for good measure. Which is why I'd switch things around before dropping him. Which I'm not against per se.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2015 18:23:22 GMT
I like being a team you don't want to play against though. Mourinho has always been the sort of manager that builds his teams to be solid and tough to beat first and foremost. Yet he's hailed as a genius (admittedly not this season) and LVG is described as anti-football. I agree there's not enough risk but I've heard LVG saying the same thing which suggests to me that some of the players haven't quite got on board with his philosophy at the attacking end of the pitch at least or that they just aren't performing well enough to take risks as well as adhering to his philosophy.
I think Scholes' last line about the manager not wanting his players to beat men and score goals is just absolute nonsense, of course he does but you've gotta be successful in doing so more times than not. Rooney and Memphis aren't in good enough form to be consistently successful risk takers at the minute.
I still think a lot of the comments regarding stuff like that from Scholes and the rest are based around people wanting the gung-ho Fergie style of play back, which is not going to happen and is quite frankly getting a little boring to listen to.
I genuinely think the attacking issues are more to do with selection and individual performances rather than LVG's philosophy.
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Post by Mani Khatra on Oct 29, 2015 19:19:43 GMT
You just have to look at Martial to disprove that theory. Also memphis has tried taking players on but has failed. Its loose passes LVG doesnt like.
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Post by Dave on Oct 29, 2015 19:42:50 GMT
Martial is the perfect forward for this system.
I understand your points Ed but he's had a run of 8 or 9 games and we've seen no improvement. Maybe the lack of quality competition has led to complacency and a wake up call might be what he needs, knowing that he isn't indispensable can be a good thing.
Ideally you'd want him in your team no matter what given the quality that he does possess but he simply isn't cutting it and there are several players in our squad more worthy at this moment.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2015 20:41:06 GMT
Martial is on the crest of a wave atm, confidence is sky high, can't really fail when you're floating on air like that. :lol:
You can see the shots on goal stats to see what Scholes is on about. I agree it's bollocks to say that VG is setting them up to do that, and VG went out of his way to say the opposite the other night - asking the players at half time why they didn't shoot on goal.
But that's just a by-product of the possession game he's instilled in them. They have become 'risk averse' and safe / predictable.
Yes, it's good that we can now do that, and it'll pay dividends in the long run, particularly in Europe. It's a solid base to work from, but we need to start re-adding the other components that make up an effective attacking team at some stage in the future. Baby steps for now, and all that. And it doesn't help when two thirds of your main attacking options are out of form looking like they've never played the game before.
But it's time VG started mixing things up a bit to rectify the overall static, pedestrian 'one speed' feel we have about our play.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2015 10:19:29 GMT
Wilson and Memphis both picked up knocks vs Boro (explains Wilson being taken off at half time at least). Mcnair and Valencia still out.
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