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Post by Jie on Jan 18, 2015 14:44:16 GMT
On Hammy's question: if we continue to play unattractive football and we don't qualify for CL.. I won't be happy, but I don't think we can get a better manager anyway, so no - I won't be calling for his head. Now a question for you - if he keeps the 352 but grinds out results and gets us into the CL, would you change your mind?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2015 14:45:02 GMT
I definitely think we'll finish top 4 (although I was adamant we would last season) but if we don't I would still want him as manager as I have seen enough to show me that given time he will turn us back into contenders for major trophies, under Moyes last season there was no hope whatsoever.
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Post by Hammy on Jan 18, 2015 14:56:05 GMT
For me Jie it's not just about the 3-5-2. I remember a few years ago Guardiola playing Mourinhos Madrid with 3 at the back and destroying them 5-0. The next game against obviously lesser opposition he went back to a flat back four. It's all about flexibility. VG doesn't have a flexible bone in his body. How we played a 3-5-2 against Yeovil is waaaaaaay beyond me. Playing defensive against a side about a zillion places below us was a complete embarrassment. I agree in some of the bigger games it could be a system we could use but to use it game after game against any team just shouldn't be in our vocabulary. Well, that's two games now that he's switched to a back four. I think that shows that he is flexible enough. I don't think he intended us to play defensively against Yeovil but we were outmuscled in just about every position on the pitch. Being forced into a position like yesterday doesn't make him flexible. The only time I remember him being flexible this season was I think in our first game of the season against Swansea. We were struggling badly and he changed the formation at half time. Against Arsenil in the second half we had 10 men behind the ball and won easily because Arsenil committed defensive suicide. I don't get what you mean against Yeovil. If we start with a 3-5-2 it's because he was more worried about defence than attack which is a shocking decision considering the opposition.
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Post by Nemanja79 on Jan 18, 2015 15:06:33 GMT
Being forced into a position like yesterday doesn't make him flexible. The only time I remember him being flexible this season was I think in our first game of the season against Swansea. We were struggling badly and he changed the formation at half time. Against Arsenil in the second half we had 10 men behind the ball and won easily because Arsenil committed defensive suicide. I don't get what you mean against Yeovil. If we start with a 3-5-2 it's because he was more worried about defence than attack which is a shocking decision considering the opposition. Yes Sir, and that's why he's so stubborn playing that system. He's big headed and proud alright but also shit scared of being humiliated by a lower league side/lower table side. He says himself that he wants to stretch the pitch but it's not just about that I feel. I mean, there's no manager who'll come out with a statement "I'm afraid because I have a bit shit defence".
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Post by Jie on Jan 18, 2015 15:08:44 GMT
I don't think he used the 352 because he was worried about our defence, the 352 is more about controlling the midfield and having possession, but in case it goes wrong you can pull back to 5 at the back. Unfortunately, we don't have wingbacks and we don't have a strong enough presence in midfield to make it more efficient. It doesn't work with our players, otherwise I have no problem with it.
Also, I don't think he was forced ibto a back 4 yesterday, he still had Smalling and McNair (I think) on the bench so he could have easily kept on with the 3.
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Post by Hammy on Jan 18, 2015 15:19:55 GMT
I definitely think we'll finish top 4 (although I was adamant we would last season) but if we don't I would still want him as manager as I have seen enough to show me that given time he will turn us back into contenders for major trophies, under Moyes last season there was no hope whatsoever. Even though we've had our differences Jaime I must admit in 99% you're spot on the money with your analisis and I'm not looking for a fight but with the players he now has at his disposal what makes you think he's the right man for the job considering the way we have played for most of the season? Even with our injuries we have a squad to take on any team put before us without having to give up our attacking options instead of concentrating too much on defense.
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Post by Nemanja79 on Jan 18, 2015 15:29:42 GMT
I don't think he used the 352 because he was worried about our defence, the 352 is more about controlling the midfield and having possession, but in case it goes wrong you can pull back to 5 at the back. Unfortunately, we don't have wingbacks and we don't have a strong enough presence in midfield to make it more efficient. It doesn't work with our players, otherwise I have no problem with it. Also, I don't think he was forced ibto a back 4 yesterday, he still had Smalling and McNair (I think) on the bench so he could have easily kept on with the 3. OK, lets look from that aspect: He knows that he doesn't have a real wingbacks but he persists with them every week because it gives him a better control of the game, ie possession and numbers in central midfield. Yet, we don't have a strong enough presence in midfield and he decides to put a natural striker there. Yes, Rooney have an energy but he simply is not a midfielder, at least not yet and struggles badly there. So, why he plays with wingbacks if he knows that he doesn't have them? Why he doesn't play Herrera in midfield instead of Rooney? I think it's because he really doesn't trust his defence enough and because he believes that Rooney can protect a back line better than Herrera. For me, it's a negative mindset, not because he likes that way but because he doesn't have much of a choice and because of that we are seeing what we are seeing. He plays di Maria up front because he possess pace (as he said himself). How about Wilson then? It's not also like Rooney doesn't have a pace either. He's trying to stretch the pitch but he fails somehow. Why? Because he has wrong set of players on a wrong positions and incompetent defence that he's trying to protect better, pulling people out of their natural positions and creating a real mess.
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Post by Hammy on Jan 18, 2015 15:39:48 GMT
Get out of that one Jie
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Post by Dave on Jan 18, 2015 15:41:23 GMT
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Post by Hammy on Jan 18, 2015 15:42:20 GMT
Now a question for you - if he keeps the 352 but grinds out results and gets us into the CL, would you change your mind? Yes I would change my mind but if we kept seeing the same negative football we are seeing this season then I wouldn't want him as manager even if he qualifies us for CL football every season.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2015 15:50:22 GMT
Because I personally have seen improvements in terms of the way the whole team functions. The attacking play also hasn't been all bad, it's only the last month or so we've looked a little toothless, which is why I see all the negativity as a bit of a kneejerk reaction although you have been critical for a while which I kinda respect as you're not just judging it on a few poor results. As Jie says, the 3-5-2 isn't necessarily about concentrating on defence it's about attaining and then maintaining ball possession.
I also look at our performances against the better sides, against Chelsea who I still rate as the best side in the league it was an even game and we got a well earned point with a late equaliser, showing fight which we didn't have last season. Away to City was an even game, we went down to 10 men and they got a bit edgy and we could've nicked a point in a game which has been tough for us of late. We comfortably disposed of Liverpool and played some good football, they had their chances but didn't have the quality to take them. Arsenal away was a good away performance against a side who always have alot of possession, yes we rode our luck but after half an hour there was only going to be one winner for me and we should've been 3-0 up before they pulled one back. Played well and beat Everton at home who we also struggled against last year and how we weren't 2/3 up against Spurs by half time was a mystery to everyone, inevitably tired in the second half mainly due to the timing of the game. Both Southampton games have been 2 of our worst performances for different reasons, at St Mary's we couldn't defend or keep possession but fortunately scraped 3 points. At home we had all the possession in the world but didn't create anything until we went behind, then Mata missed the target with 3 chances.
If anything we have been guilty this season of not being able to transfer a good performance in matches against the smaller teams which means that I'm also less worried, that's something that I think will improve next season when Van Gaal is a season wiser in the division and he's made more summer signings to get closer to his complete squad. If we were once again getting outplayed by the sides around us we'd have had more reason for concern IMO.
I don't think he lacks flexibility so much as he lacks trust in the squad he has at his disposal, a more combative cm like Strootman and a world class centre half could see him be more willing to switch his formations up when he see's they're not working (it would also give him the ability to play the right players in the right position if he insists on staying with a 3-5-2), he also had the chance to bring Smalling on for Evans yesterday but instead chose to bring on a forward to give us more attacking impetus.
Above everything I like the way he speaks, he's confident, he see's the club as his club now, he's always honest in his interviews, only a couple of occasions has he used excuses to explain results, other than that he's said we weren't good enough. Every week with Moyes it was, we were the better side we should've won when everyone could see we got massively outplayed. He's just a very convincing person to listen to and I am certain he will get it right.
I said at the beginning of the season that it was all about progression this year, a top 4 finish and being a better side is progression in my opinion and despite what people think I believe we are a much better side this year and as I said I am almost certain we'll finish top 4.
Next year I won't be so forgiving, he'll have the chance to make more signings and offload players he doesn't think fit into his philosophy, enough and he'll also be a year wiser in terms of knowing how to play in the Premier League.
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Post by Jie on Jan 18, 2015 15:55:18 GMT
For Yeovil specifically, I think he went with 352 because he didn't know what to expect. Last time he underestimated MK Dons and we got punished for it. It gives you a lot of options too - if you need to defend you can go 5 (or even 6) in defence. If you need to attack you can stretch it out. Keep the control and possession - check. For me, he continues with the 352 because 1) it has worked for 11 consecutive games and 2) because we don't have a proper box to box midfielder so the defenders have to push a lot farther up the pitch whenever we're attacking. Lack of pace in the ones we do have doesn't help either.
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Post by Hammy on Jan 18, 2015 15:59:01 GMT
Fuck me. A few paragraphs would of done :lol: I can respect your analysis. You've been critical when needed and given praise when needed. For most people VG came with a clean slate. Like I said before, I witnessed his meltdown at Barcelona and it really did leave a bad taste in my mouth. Even now when i speak with Barça supporters about VG they still think he's a clown even though he won them trophies. Hopefully performances will change and I can get rid of that bad taste and my negativity because believe me I don't get any joy out of always seemingly criticising him.
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Post by Jie on Jan 18, 2015 16:00:05 GMT
Fucking hell, takes me forever to write this on a phone and by the time I'm done there are 10 more replies. From now on Jamie is my spokesperson.
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Post by Hammy on Jan 18, 2015 16:04:32 GMT
Are you sacking me?
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