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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2015 21:47:38 GMT
West Ham did what all mid table sides have done to us and that's aggressively pressed and come at us, because every opposition manager knows where we are weak, but you can only do that for so long before you run out of steam and slow down and that's what LVG banks on in the hope we can pick them off later in the game, which has been reasonably successful.
During that time though if he keeps it out wide, switches play and plays keep ball as much as possible then it keeps it out of the middle as much as possible when we're in possession, also the quicker they tire. That's what he's been going after but if you notice he tailors every single game differently >> because he thinks he's spotted their weaknesses and he actually prides himself on it, it's why he's got his reputation as a 'tactical genius' over the years.
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Post by howAREya on Mar 11, 2015 23:45:15 GMT
Don't buy that first bit at all.
We still give up a multitude of chances with this tactic despite giving the impression that it's meant to be solid.
These teams press us because we allow them to. We've had too many draws stemming from this approach which are almost as bad as defeats. Trying this made a toothless Villa side look like world beaters.
It's like starting games as if we want to avoid losing rather than going for the win and that inevitably brings on this pressure from teams and opponents will latch onto that cuz they know we'll sit back, in the mental sense at least.
Teams run out of steam because we actually decide to work them more instead of this hit and hope something happens. They start retreating as a result because we have more intensity about us.
If we aren't at least trying to hurt teams they'll just say have the ball all you want. Solves that problem
Few weeks after West Ham, and away from home again this time to Swansea, they came straight out of the blocks and could have been 2 or 3 nothing up in no time.
Poor first half from us but we somehow got in at 1-1.
Suddenly for the majority of the 2nd half we had them camped in their own half. Swansea didn't run out of steam just from a visit to their dressing room at half time, in fact they still had plenty in reserve to break up the far side and get the winner, fortuitously, but winner all the same.
Newcastle and Arsenal just within the space of the last week, we take on an entirely different approach and but for bad luck in the opposition box and poor finishing, early goals for us may well have set us up for more comfortable nights on those 2 occasions.
That's the complete opposite of West Ham and Swansea. It's like someone just flicked a switch.
Although whatever about Arsenal, I certainly wouldn't say there's much difference between West Ham/Swansea & Newcastle.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 12:20:53 GMT
Glazers want a modern European team capable of winning multiple Champions League trophies regularly >> employ VG who has all the credentials to do this but only commits to three years - so the least they want him to do is put in place the structure to achieve this. He's also tasked with restoring BPL domination. That's a big circle to square by any standards. We still give up a multitude of chances with this tactic despite giving the impression that it's meant to be solid. You'd be giving up even more and lose significantly more matches if we played like we used to play (we don't have the playing staff any more). These teams press us because we allow them to. No, these teams press us because we don't have a combative midfield to counter that strategy a lot of the time (we don't have the playing staff any more) We've had too many draws stemming from this approach which are almost as bad as defeats. Trying this made a toothless Villa side look like world beaters. We've had too many draws like this because it's better than losing :lol: and that's all we're capable of for considerable passages of play - at the moment. But you're right, until you win these games you don't win the league (we don't have the playing staff - yet). It's like starting games as if we want to avoid losing rather than going for the win Yep, that's the European philosophy that's what he is tasked, by the owners, to implement. He's doing his job. and that inevitably brings on this pressure from teams and opponents will latch onto that cuz they know we'll sit back, in the mental sense at least. Other teams know we're weak in midfield and extremely suspect in defence, and they have little to fear by attacking us. It gives them a huge psychological lift and makes our job considerably harder, especially when we don't physically have the players to counter the problem. Everyone is going to love kicking us when we're down, fortunately VG has made OT a little more secure for us (thank fuck). Teams run out of steam because we actually decide to work them more instead of this hit and hope something happens. They start retreating as a result because we have more intensity about us. If we aren't at least trying to hurt teams they'll just say have the ball all you want. Solves that problem There's a natural ebb and flow of any game where one side gets to dominate for periods while the other slackens off when both teams are relatively evenly matched. But the team that keeps possession uses less energy than the team chasing the ball, in general (it's a percentage gamble). But VG's problem stems from the bulk of the club's players being 1) totally new to this style of play 2) they lose concentration and a lot of times lose possession -> which boosts the opposition 3) we generally lose impetus in attack >> which is what counts for the majority of fans who are used to seeing attacking football and a different style of football. If the Glazers want to go down this road for the long term benefit of the club, then everyone is just going to have to sit tight and be patient - because this shit doesn't just click overnight. Few weeks after West Ham, and away from home again this time to Swansea, they came straight out of the blocks and could have been 2 or 3 nothing up in no time. Poor first half from us but we somehow got in at 1-1. Suddenly for the majority of the 2nd half we had them camped in their own half. Swansea didn't run out of steam just from a visit to their dressing room at half time, in fact they still had plenty in reserve to break up the far side and get the winner, fortuitously, but winner all the same. That's just the normal ebb and flow of evenly matched teams battling it out. Manchester United are not the same club they were with Keane and Scholes making things tick. Those two enabled the entire team to tip the balance in any match in our favour. That's the reason we can't and don't 'dominate' It's that simple. No mystery involved. Van Gaal is just doing his job as best he can with what he's got. Things could have gone a lot better for him in terms of injuries, players adjusting quicker to the BPL, etc, but it hasn't panned out like that. What'ya gonna do, sack him because the clubs fans have the patience of a gnat?? *shrugs* Newcastle and Arsenal just within the space of the last week, we take on an entirely different approach and but for bad luck in the opposition box and poor finishing, early goals for us may well have set us up for more comfortable nights on those 2 occasions. Arsenal were still better than us in midfield. We were unlucky though, I thought we had it in us to get a result with 11 v 11. That's the complete opposite of West Ham and Swansea. It's like someone just flicked a switch. Although whatever about Arsenal, I certainly wouldn't say there's much difference between West Ham/Swansea & Newcastle. This league is the tightest in years with only one outstanding candidate > who also got beat, at home, by a European team down to 10 men, last night. :lol: |
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Post by howAREya on Mar 12, 2015 21:42:30 GMT
Glazers want a modern European team capable of winning multiple Champions League trophies regularly >> employ VG who has all the credentials to do this but only commits to three years - so the least they want him to do is put in place the structure to achieve this. He's also tasked with restoring BPL domination. That's a big circle to square by any standards. They gave Moyes 6 years so you've no idea what they do or don't want You'd be giving up even more and lose significantly more matches if we played like we used to play (we don't have the playing staff any more). Doubt it. Lost count the number of times De Gea has been our best player in games this season. God forbid we went and genuinely attacked, we might score and opponents leave more space in behind for our runners. Yep, that's the European philosophy that's what he is tasked, by the owners, to implement. He's doing his job. Great I'll stick money on a European Cup coming our way within the next 3 years. Other teams know we're weak in midfield and extremely suspect in defence, and they have little to fear by attacking us. It gives them a huge psychological lift and makes our job considerably harder, especially when we don't physically have the players to counter the problem. Everyone is going to love kicking us when we're down, fortunately VG has made OT a little more secure for us (thank fuck). Teams see us passing around just for the fun of it in our own half and see it as risk free to them. Mistake, set piece who knows what might happen. Foolproof alright There's a natural ebb and flow of any game where one side gets to dominate for periods while the other slackens off when both teams are relatively evenly matched. But the team that keeps possession uses less energy than the team chasing the ball, in general (it's a percentage gamble). we dominate in halves not even periods. far too general of an assessment. That's just the normal ebb and flow of evenly matched teams battling it out. Manchester United are not the same club they were with Keane and Scholes making things tick. Those two enabled the entire team to tip the balance in any match in our favour. That's the reason we can't and don't 'dominate' It's that simple. No mystery involved. evenly matched teams???? :lol: Arsenal were still better than us in midfield. Arsenal have had on paper a better midfield than us for years This league is the tightest in years with only one outstanding candidate > who also got beat, at home, by a European team down to 10 men, last night. And they showed not to be too good either. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 22:27:56 GMT
They gave Moyes 6 years so you've no idea what they do or don't want Moyes was on a rolling one year contract for six years, it had large strings attached to it. I know exactly what they do and don't want because I listened closely to what was coming out of OT when they made the switch to VG. They acknowledged the club needed restructuring and jumped ship accordingly when the more suitable candidate became available. Doubt it. Lost count the number of times De Gea has been our best player in games this season. God forbid we went and genuinely attacked, we might score and opponents leave more space in behind for our runners. You'd have had Leicester every other week which is why VG changed things around and said exactly that shortly after. If he hasn't got the midfield and defence right, what else is he supposed to do, go down in a blaze of glory because that's the "United way" - VG isn't that stupid. This way we've remained competitive but underwhelming. Great I'll stick money on a European Cup coming our way within the next 3 years. Put Hummels and Pogba in that current side when all the newbies this year are settled and I don't think you're too far off, I really don't. Teams see us passing around just for the fun of it in our own half and see it as risk free to them. Mistake, set piece who knows what might happen. Foolproof alright To a point, when the three points I mentioned above happen but when they do get it right the possession game has worked effectively and teams do dwindle which works to our advantage. we dominate in halves not even periods. far too general of an assessment. No we don't, we keep possession well sometimes and like you say that's flawed (for the three reasons above). One West Ham game where he made an impression at half time didn't last the full 45, WH came back into that game >> that's normal ebb and flow of a game to me. evenly matched teams????  Yep, what do you call it when you predominantly draw with mid table sides and the points difference between 3rd and 7th is 5? And they showed not to be too good either. Glad you see the point I was driving at. The need to restructure the club is paramount if people want a better UCL return. Whilst I don't grumble at Fergies return of two trophies in 24 years, it isn't good enough and it does need addressing. If someone said to me VG rips up the past and we have two turbulent years of restructuring the entire squad but I get the pay off in the 3rd or 4th year, I'd take it. Even if I have to put up with comparatively shit looking football than we've been used to for all those years. |
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Post by howAREya on Mar 12, 2015 23:38:19 GMT
Moyes was on a rolling one year contract for six years, it had large strings attached to it. I know exactly what they do and don't want because I listened closely to what was coming out of OT when they made the switch to VG. They acknowledged the club needed restructuring and jumped ship accordingly when the more suitable candidate became available. And Ed Woodward said the club were aiming for top 3 in the league this season based on budgets. How does finishing lower suddenly become acceptable You'd have had Leicester every other week which is why VG changed things around and said exactly that shortly after. If he hasn't got the midfield and defence right, what else is he supposed to do, go down in a blaze of glory because that's the "United way" - VG isn't that stupid. This way we've remained competitive but underwhelming. That game changed on a crazy decision by referee Clattenburg to award Leicester a penalty and the team let that affect them. We went 3-0 up before half time against the same team at Old Trafford and we saw the game out. Yep, what do you call it when you predominantly draw with mid table sides and the points difference between 3rd and 7th is 5? The teams higher up aren't playing as well. We see that all the time for teams chasing Europe outside of the title contenders. Everton were a top side last season and look where they are now. United haven't beaten a team in the top half since December (in all comps') which isn't good enough for a side aiming for top 3. The real stuff starts on Sunday. Glad you see the point I was driving at. The need to restructure the club is paramount if people want a better UCL return. Whilst I don't grumble at Fergies return of two trophies in 24 years, it isn't good enough and it does need addressing. If someone said to me VG rips up the past and we have two turbulent years of restructuring the entire squad but I get the pay off in the 3rd or 4th year, I'd take it. Even if I have to put up with comparatively shit looking football than we've been used to for all those years. Objectives eh. |
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Post by Nemanja79 on Mar 13, 2015 1:23:50 GMT
That game changed on a crazy decision by referee Clattenburg to award Leicester a penalty and the team let that affect them. We went 3-0 up before half time against the same team at Old Trafford and we saw the game out.   Compare and spot the difference. Include also the players profiles, experience, their mindset and position on the pitch, amongst the other things like new faces in the second match. If they let one mistake of the referee to affect their brains in such a manner, they're not worth of further sticking with them in the same fashion. The change happened in the later stages of the season, which can be seen on the second picture. |
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Post by Nemanja79 on Mar 13, 2015 1:28:12 GMT
Everton were a top side last season and look where they are now And yet, they are the only English team left in Europe, well, if you discount City who have very little to no chance of progressing in Barcelona.  |
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Post by howAREya on Mar 13, 2015 1:32:47 GMT
Well it clearly did because we completely lost our discipline that day. Leicester weren't even in the game up until they got that penalty. It was early in the season so I put it down to nothing more than a minor blip with everyone including the manager trying to get used to everything.
Rafael clearly hasn't had much of a look in since that day but he maybe in contention for the weekend
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Post by howAREya on Mar 13, 2015 1:35:16 GMT
Quietly going along about their business in Europa which will suit them down to the ground. I'd be surprised if they do it but if the draw is kind to them they'll give it a right shot.
Shame scum and spurs arent still in it though
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2015 7:39:45 GMT
And Ed Woodward said the club were aiming for top 3 in the league this season based on budgets. How does finishing lower suddenly become acceptable Nothing wrong with aiming for and stating it in a business like statement, let's everyone know including the stock market and shareholders your intentions, it's as much for market confidence as anything. The Glazers and certainly Woodward knew full well the reality of the situation after Moyes. Just because Ferguson could make a silk purse out of a sow's ear didn't mean every other manager could. He also said they would rather buy the right players when they become available rather than than buy any old player, knowing full well a rebuild doesn't happen in one window. Glazer under investment and total reliance on Ferguson genius to dig them out of the debt hole is one of the main reasons there was no direct replacements for Keane and Scholes when we needed it most. Ferguson took solace in youth (Pogba and Morrison) and nothing was done. I blame the Glazers as much as anyone for where we are now. With a bit of luck they get sick of having to invest heavily and fuck off - I can but hope. On the other hand, knowing corporate strategists, they were well aware of what they were doing and prepared for this period (of massive spending). It's not like Ferguson didn't buy them enough time. That game changed on a crazy decision by referee Clattenburg to award Leicester a penalty and the team let that affect them. We went 3-0 up before half time against the same team at Old Trafford and we saw the game out. Shit happens though, it's football and VG didn't complain too much about the decisions at the time. But that collapse spooked the fuck out of him and his team because they discovered the real world deficiencies of that side in midfield and defence when it came to the BPL. It was actually painful watching. Clattenburg is a cunt - and that's before breakfast. The teams higher up aren't playing as well. We see that all the time for teams chasing Europe outside of the title contenders. Everton were a top side last season and look where they are now. United haven't beaten a team in the top half since December (in all comps') which isn't good enough for a side aiming for top 3. The real stuff starts on Sunday. Yes, it's not good enough and it's depressing that we are effectively a top mid-table side in reality, but if you don't have a midfield and defence fit for every BPL eventuality then you'll quickly get found out and pay the price. VG has done well minimising those deficiencies to remain top 4 competitive but it's cost him every other way and probably used up most the fans 'good will'. I will say it's an odd squad though, because you could be potentially two (or three) players away from a multi title winning side. |
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Post by Nemanja79 on Mar 13, 2015 10:07:06 GMT
That crappy day at Leicester was a real wake up call for van Gaal and what he did later was needed to be done. He switched the formation first, adding an extra center back. Then he got rid of some players who were not up to task that day. He pulled Rooney back in midfield as a protection for a shaky defence, in his eyes he was the only one capable of doing that and I can't say now I disagree with him, although it was baffling at the time, but obviously Van Gaal knows better than I do and all of us here. He sacrificed our flying play from the beginning of the season for a more solid back line and it payed of, going by the points we collected and position on the table.
If he didn't do anything of this and continued in the same fashion, it would be much more Leicesters away and we would be somewhere as the last season under out of depth Moyes. This is just one of the big differences between the two managers.
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Post by Nemanja79 on Mar 13, 2015 14:30:28 GMT
Paul Scholes: I like Louis van Gaal's new system at Manchester United but I do fear it's not right for the players he hasPaul Scholes Thursday 12 March 2015 The last chance of a trophy for Manchester United this season passed with defeat to Arsenal in the FA Cup on Monday, and for the first time since 1987-1989 the club will go two consecutive seasons without a major trophy, domestic or European. But come this weekend, that will pale in comparison with the worries about Champions League qualification. United’s fixture list for the final 10 games of the season looks far from straightforward, starting with Tottenham Hotspur on Sunday and then Liverpool away the following weekend. They still have to play Chelsea and Everton away and Arsenal at home. Realistically Arsenal, United, Liverpool and Spurs are competing for the last two Champions League places, with Southampton the outsiders, and I have already said I feel that Liverpool are favourites for third. Watching United at Old Trafford on Monday, I know what Louis van Gaal is trying to do with this team. I do like the concept. I just question whether he has the players to do it. In recent weeks, Van Gaal has tried what I would describe as a more Barcelona-style approach to games. His centre-backs push wide, the full-backs push on and the team pass the ball. It has worked against the weaker teams but it is against the stronger sides, starting with Spurs and the high-pressing game they play, that you have to wonder whether it will be found out. To play this way, you really need to be exceptional. Barcelona can do it because they have the players and they have been playing this way for years. United have spent around £220m in the last three transfer windows and yet I would question whether they have the players to operate this system. Against Arsenal, there were times when United went more direct to Marouane Fellaini but not as much as might be expected. For what other reason was he in the team? At least it gave United a chance to play in their opponents’ half. It might be a bit prehistoric, and there is no chance that Van Gaal will want to do it long term, but if United keep playing the way they are, they will be found out against better sides. The Spurs midfield, for example, has Nabil Bentaleb and Ryan Mason at the centre, two players I like. They get to the ball quickly and close opponents down. If the aim is to pass around them, then you have to be very polished in that kind of possession-style game. My guess is that Michael Carrick will play against Spurs on Sunday, which will help United. I understand what Van Gaal is trying to do. I like that he is playing with the wide players. I also know that as former players we cannot harp on about the old days for ever. Things change, although I believe that certain principles, of attacking, entertaining football, should always be protected. Like any other match-going fan – I have two season tickets for Old Trafford – I want to see the team play well and win. I just don’t think this system is the best for these players. What I find hard to understand is how, in March, United are playing another new style with no evidence that they have the personnel to do it. Managers live and die by their recruitment. You buy the right players for the system that you believe will be successful. I don’t believe that the club have achieved that balance. There must be concerns for Juan Mata, who has not started a league game since the Queen’s Park Rangers match on 17 January. Given the system Van Gaal seeks to use, I wonder why Mata does not play instead of Fellaini, especially given that United can be reluctant to knock the ball long. I still believe that Van Gaal is the right man for the job. I don’t think he will change his mind about the way he wants the team to play. He is a stubborn man and that is no bad thing in football. But I am afraid to say that if he wants to play this Barcelona style then the club will have to go back into the transfer market this summer to get the players they need to do it. It seems crazy to say that when you look at the money that United have spent, and it will be more difficult to do so if they are not in the Champions League. It has been another difficult season for the club, but nothing they have been through in the last seven months will compare with the challenge of these last 10 games, and what is at stake. www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/paul-scholes-i-like-louis-van-gaals-new-system-at-manchester-united-but-i-do-fear-its-not-rightfor-the-players-he-has-10104854.html____________________________________________________________________________________ No Scholesy, he doesn't have the fully right players and that's why he'll change approach to those games, like we have seen previously against the better teams. Spurs are not the Barcelona themselves exactly anyway.
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Post by Nemanja79 on Mar 14, 2015 9:42:12 GMT
Louis van Gaal says Manchester United can finish above Manchester City as Dutch boss targets second spot in the Premier League- Louis van Gaal wants to finish second in the Barclays Premier League
- There is a five point gap between United and Manchester City in second
- He sees games against Tottenham, Liverpool and City as opportunities
- Van Gaal says United 'have to be' in next year's Champions League
- Dutchman is confident he will be a success this year and in the future
- He rejected chance to discuss how close he came to joining Tottenham
Louis van Gaal believes Manchester United can still climb above Manchester City and finish second in the Barclays Premier League. Van Gaal won a trophy in his first year at Ajax, Barcelona and Bayern Munich, but his chances of achieving the same feat at United are remote. United were knocked out of the FA Cup by Arsenal on Monday and they sit 10 points behind Barclays Premier League leaders Chelsea, who have a match in hand. But with games against Tottenham, Liverpool, Manchester City and Chelsea to come over the next few weeks, Van Gaal knows United have an opportunity to move away from the rivals lurking just outside the top four. And despite recent criticism of his team, Van Gaal also believes United can even overcome the five-point gap that separates them from their cross-city rivals. 'The coming matches are very decisive,' the United manager said. 'We are so close to a lot of clubs. We can be second or third. It is not a big difference, I believe. 'Manchester United have to be one of the teams who have to play in the Champions League.' Van Gaal remarked earlier this season that he owned an 'iron shield' to protect him from any criticism that comes his way. Despite being fourth in the table and losing just three of his last 23 games, Van Gaal has been criticised for his style of play. Paul Scholes unleashed his latest volley on Friday, remarking in his column that some of United's play in their defeat to Arsenal was 'prehistoric'. In fairness, the former United midfielder said he was confident Van Gaal would be a success at Old Trafford and the manager himself seems pretty sure about that too. All he needs is for his players to start reproducing the kind of form they have shown in training on the pitch. 'We have the confidence to reach the goal we set at the beginning of the season,' said Van Gaal, who was told last summer that his target this year was a top-four finish. 'I have a lot of confidence in my players. From what I see in training sessions, we have progressed. But there is a big difference between training sessions and matches. 'We have to wait for the big victory. Then, maybe, we shall have more spirit and also more confidence to win our games.' Van Gaal rejected the opportunity to discuss how close he came to signing for Sunday's opponents Tottenham last summer when they sacked Tim Sherwood. 'I don't want to answer that type of question any more,' he said. 'It is not interesting anymore. It is the past and we live in the present. '(Mauricio) Pochettino is working there and I am working here. I am very pleased I am working here and Pochettino should be very pleased he is working there.' Angel di Maria's dismissal against Arsenal means he is suspended this weekend and so is Jonny Evans, who is two matches into a six-game ban for spitting at Newcastle's Papiss Cisse. Defender Marcos Rojo is a doubt with a groin problem and Van Gaal confirmed Robin van Persie will be out for at least the next two games as he is yet to overcome the ankle injury he suffered against Swansea. www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2994293/Louis-van-Gaal-says-Manchester-United-finish-Manchester-City-Dutch-boss-targets-second-spot-Premier-League.htmlThat's the manager telling the right things. Now is only left to translate it on the pitch.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2015 9:57:04 GMT
If we go on a bit of a run there's nothing to suggest we don't have a chance to finish above them. Only 5 ahead of us with them to come to Old Trafford yet and they aren't the best looking side in the world right now themselves. It would take a step up from us but I believe this side is capable of it if they can click.
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