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Post by Nemanja79 on Feb 17, 2015 12:22:42 GMT
How do you make space in central midfield? By the quick moving and passing and support from the wingers and fullbacks?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 12:28:05 GMT
We haven't been playing with wingers though. We've packed numbers into midfield and those midfielders needs space created for them, the only way to do that is to force the other team to defend deeper.
How can you expect quick passing when there are so many players in such a confined area of the pitch? You'd need Barcelona-at-their-best moves just to get to the final third.
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Post by Nemanja79 on Feb 17, 2015 12:40:18 GMT
We haven't been playing with wingers though. We've packed numbers into midfield and those midfielders needs space created for them, the only way to do that is to force the other team to defend deeper. How can you expect quick passing when there are so many players in such a confined area of the pitch? You'd need Barcelona-at-their-best moves just to get to the final third. Yes and that's where lies the main problem. It's forced due to lack of such players. That's why I'm not entirely on van Gaal's back even with the performances we're seeing. Falcao is underperformer, it's just unfair imo to put all the blame on him. Strikers main job is to score goals. Stretching the pitch comes the second or third. They need proper service in order to be effective which our strikers don't have. It's not also that he didn't drag down some defenders and when he does that, either the passers don't see him, decide to pass the ball on the other side or mishit the pass. The only blame on this can go to Falcao when the ball reaches him and just bounce 2 yards away due to poor first touch. he's not the player who have poor first touch by nature, it's just about lack of games in the last year and drop in self belief I think. It's also true that we don't have much of them comfortable on the ball, When you don't have that, you start to panic, then the confidence goes down. The problem is way wider than Falcao and van Persie.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 13:09:03 GMT
Where did I put all of the blame on him? The blame lies within the system we're trying to play him in in the main, but you still expect a lot lot more from him than we're currently getting.
We have plenty of players who are able to pass and move the ball well in midfield, but even Xavi and Iniesta would struggle in there when there is nobody creating the space. We can't keep blaming poor service when we're talking about the likes of Rooney, Di Maria and Mata, these three players are amongst the top players in the world when it comes to the assist charts.
But they need something to hit and the space to do it in, both of these things are created by your attackers, and Falcao simply isn't doing enough. He'd be better in a flat 4-4-2 when the wingers can help create space but seeing as we're not using that until we're a goal down then there is simply no point to Falcao.
I'm becoming a broken record here.
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Post by Hammy on Feb 17, 2015 15:34:50 GMT
I do agree with Marc on this one. Our formation (or lack of it) and our lack of a dynamic forward makes everything a lot harder than it should be. We have players to rip teams to shreds but for some reason everyone but VG can see this. Game after game we are seeing RVP and/or Falcao static in front of the defenders instead of playing on their shoulders ready to make a run into space. How much of this is down to the players not being arsed or it's VGs tactics I just don't know. Whatever the reason, it doesn't make good reading. Most people here are very much on VGs side thinking that in the summer we will buy what he needs to make us a potent force again but we have to look at the here and now. Whatever way you look at it in too many games he's looking absolutely clueless. I don't really care if we're 19 unbeaten because in most of these games we've been bogshit and had more to do with luck us getting points more than deserving anything from the game. The players don't look like they want to play for him. There's no heart in the team. Players are just going through motions and don't look like they give a shit until we go a goal behind. Against the bigger teams missing key signings could be used as an excuse but against teams like Yeovil, Cambridge and Preston no fucking way. Embarrassment is a word I could use considering the talent he has at his disposal. Against Preston we put out a team that on paper should be able to take on anyone but for the first hour we played like a bunch of school boys and the main reason for that is VG. Or am I missing something?
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Post by Nemanja79 on Feb 17, 2015 15:43:41 GMT
I really do wonder how much of that talent is good as deemed.
And I really like to know how many of that talent is good enough on the ball, in decision making and overall sporting intelligence.
The list please.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 16:00:09 GMT
His job is to get into the top 4 and go as far as he can in the cup. That's it for this season.
If that means killing a game with "dull" possession based play in order to exert some form of control over a game because he hasn't got the right personnel in midfield (and defence) to do the job he wants, then that's what he will do (and has done).
It's his job on the line, not anyone else's. Fans will just have to swallow it this season.
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Post by Hammy on Feb 17, 2015 16:38:17 GMT
Next season apart Ed but does it look like to you that the players are up for playing for VG? Do they look proud pulling on the shirt or are they just going through the motions? Does VG look like a tactical genius sitting on the sidelines looking like someone with constipation game after game? Do we have any sort of structure in our play? I'm not really buying into get results whatever the cost. Yes we are still a few players short but with the players VG has at his disposal now we should at least look like we know how to play football instead of at times (too many) looking like a sunday league team. He's said recently he still doesn't know our best formation or his best 11. WTF??? He's been with us long enough to know to know what doesn't work but he persists anyway. Most of the time we don't even get the basics right. We don't defend as a team, we don't attack as a team, we have a problem with basic passing, our movement is all wrong, team selection is usually questionable, formation/ tactics is usually questionable and as for Jones taking corners I admire your faith in the man but sorry, at this present time I just can't share it.
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Post by Hammy on Feb 17, 2015 16:48:51 GMT
I told you I should go into hibernation until the summer
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 17:01:34 GMT
Results speak for themselves, as does the method of play and the reasons for it. That current United side could do exactly what people want "We have plenty of players who are able to pass and move the ball well in midfield" - but if they did, they would just as easily end up being beat 5-0 every game. VG has said as much and him and his team have decided to look for the best balanced side and a method of play that doesn't lose and can achieve top four.
It's not difficult for him to go 442 and "entertain" the masses with that current side - but you'd never keep a clean sheet with what we've got in defence and a midfield that can't dictate play when physically pressed.
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Post by matt on Feb 17, 2015 18:55:21 GMT
I agree with Marc's argument that we desperatly lack pace upfront, and that it is affecting our ability to create space for our midfielders and full-back to take advantage of.
As I've kept saying for a while, the biggest investments this summer should be made: - in CM: where we need to add a couple of players who can respond to more physical games - upfront: where we need a forward with pace and trickery
Of course we will add bodies at the back, and rightly so, but I believe we would do much better already if the positions I've mentioned above are covered once and for all.
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Post by Nemanja79 on Feb 17, 2015 19:25:06 GMT
I agree with Ed in every word of the last post but I also feel Mark's fears.
Speaking of pace up front, is it really that much of a fuss? I know what van Gaal has said and done to get some pace there, but look at the other areas:
Fullbacks: Rafael, Valencia, Shaw, Young, (Rojo) - all possess a great pace, maybe even the best in the league
Central Midfield: Rooney? di Maria? Herrera? - different tasks being given or not even played there to put it as a question. The rest of them, none of very little pace
Wings: Januzaj, di Maria, Valencia and Young again - plenty of pace
Strikers: Wilson only, Rooney doesn't count as of late
We have pace but not so much in the most important area. What we don't have at all is composure, chemistry and a good cover for a defence who's an accident waiting to happen. van Gaal builds from the back - he's unable to do that with the current players so the pace is irrelevant until you got the balance to unleash that pace!
We also have an overhyped players who are yet to prove themselves and just maybe aren't that good as deemed about.
What else we do have? The pressure on them and the manager to deliver after that inept little fecker ruined already unbalanced squad and players who lost the faith in themselves. One thing is for sure, van Gaal is a great psychologist when he has managed to resurrect Ashley Young of Aston Villa and make big Fella look as one of the best and basically a savior (alongside de Gea).
We simply don't have the players/calmness/intelligence (take it as it suits you)in the most important positions to play under pressure and build our attacks in the way van Gaal wants. When we set up 4-3-3 and flying around, then I'll know that he plays like he really wants to play.
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Post by Nemanja79 on Feb 17, 2015 19:46:07 GMT
Just to mention, van Gaal's strikers at Bayern, the Champions of Germany, DBF-Pokal champions and a runners up in the Uefa Champions League:
Thomas Müller - all rounder but anyway Ivica Olić Miroslav Klose Mario Gómez Luca Toni
Speed demons?
But look at the midfield: Schweinsteiger, Müller (again), van Bommel, Robben, Ribéry, Tymoshchuk, Alaba, Altintop. Tells you something.
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Post by Dave on Feb 17, 2015 20:55:58 GMT
He had pace from wide areas, we aren't playing with wingers.
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Post by Nemanja79 on Feb 17, 2015 22:15:26 GMT
He had pace from wide areas, we aren't playing with wingers. We have the pace from wide areas too, so why we don't play with wingers then?
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