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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 11:44:01 GMT
I've never minded Rooney being played out wide, you know you're going to get 100% from him all game. I actually think his best seasons at the club were when he did a similar job to accommodate Ronaldo and let him have a free role. In those few seasons were Ronaldo was incredible, Rooney was outstanding as well but was just outshone. He was unselfish and did everything for the team.
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Post by Dave on Dec 19, 2015 14:01:50 GMT
De Gea, Young, Smalling, Jones, Blind, Carrick, Fellaini, Mata, Rooney, Memphis, Martial
Subs: Romero, BJ, Varela, McNair, Schneiderlin, Herrera, Periera.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 17:12:18 GMT
Patience is deteriorating. No hope at all, never fancied us to get back into it. As much as we dominated the general play it was Norwich who looked more likely to score. It's starting to feel very Moyes-esque, like the players just haven't bought into him, either that or they've grown tired of him but that group of players just aren't performing for him in the way he wants. Rightly or wrongly.
These performances were fine when we were solid and grinding out victories but now they're ending in defeats. No win in 6 games and we haven't played anyone of significance. We should have been able to beat each and every one of the teams we've failed to beat in the last 6.
You look around the premier league and there are managers with far worse squads than ours getting great performances and results out of their players. Ranieri at Leicester and Pochettino at Spurs are the main 2. Neither of those squads are close to ours in quality yet they're playing much better football and are a much more complete team.
I think the players are letting him down massively, either because they're not good enough to perform the way he wants them to effectively or because they just don't like the way he wants them to play. Either way he has to take responsibility, he either needed to buy players who were capable of doing what he wants or change his setup to suit the team. There's no plan B with him, he plays the same way every game win or lose. He's made strange decisions over the season and even today with his starting lineup. A central midfield of Carrick/Fellaini is absolutely ludicrous when you've got Herrera and Schneiderlin on the bench.
I'm now at the stage where I think this is going to be hard to fix, the stories of him losing the dressing room look correct to me and once that happens there's not really any way back for the manager.
I think this is going to end with him losing his job. Which I think is unfair but looking increasingly necessary. The players have to take a hell of a lot of the responsibility as well as they've been absolute gash. He's stabilised us and had some positive impacts on areas of the team but I don't see him being able to take us any further.
Lose away to Stoke on Boxing Day and I think his fate will be virtually sealed I really do.
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Post by Dave on Dec 19, 2015 17:19:25 GMT
Aye Jamie looks that way, you've covered pretty much all bases. I went into this game not feeling confident, didn't know what we would see. First half though, we had intent and had attack after attack just there was very little at the end of it. Second half was just so flat, the players and the fans alike. Norwich didn't even play well but we've seen these performances before under Fergie at times and under Moyes and LVG, out of ideas in the final third, this shouldn't just be down to following a managers guidelines step by step. Grow a pair, Jesus. Ugh... Now we are going to have more talk of Mourinho..  come on LVG get your arse in gear, we don't want that cunt. |
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Post by Hammy on Dec 19, 2015 17:27:38 GMT
You can have all the talent in the world but if there's no team spirit there's nothing. Leicester have great team spirit and look where they are.
Under SAF we had great team spirit and great players which made us very difficult to beat. Under Moyes we didn't have such good players and no team spirit which is why he was shown the door sharpish. Under VG I do believe we have players to be challenging for titles but once again no team spirit which translates in us winning fuck all.
What's easier? Changing the manager or changing the squad? Just ask Chelski.
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Post by Dave on Dec 19, 2015 17:39:18 GMT
It's becoming the way of modern football, players rule the roost, such a shame.
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Post by Hammy on Dec 19, 2015 17:54:13 GMT
In some ways I do agree with you Dave but at the end of the day it's the manager who has to build the team spirit. If he can't then there's no point in him staying. Of course the players have to share a large part of the blame but they're obviously not comfortable with the style of play and that does reflect on the pitch.
I'm 100% sure that with a more dynamic manager like Pep with the same squad we could win titles. Football is a sport which should be enjoyed both as a player and as a spectator. Take the fun out of it and it becomes a job even if they do get payed mega bucks for doing it, attitude changes.
Not once has VG looked to make changes in his style. I'm a great believer in a gifted player shouldn't have to change his way of playing to suit the manager but the other way round. And that is why it's all going pear shaped. With VG it's his way or no way.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 18:15:13 GMT
It's not team spirit we're lacking so much, it's the characters who have the burning drive to win, we have no characters who can grab a game by the throat. We have no split personality psychos / winners in the squad, they're all the same, same; great footballers, nice people, do not always equal winners. Combine all that with LVG's cultured possession style and you've got lacklustre on steroids.
Two options as I see it, buy what we need starting January, or rip the philosophy book up and ditch the languid possession style up for a less transparent option. Ball's in his court whatever.
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Post by charlie911 on Dec 19, 2015 18:30:45 GMT
I agree with what all three of you have said and his interview today he wasn't as confident as he usually is which I found damning in a way and him say that he was a very successful manager seems like if against Stoke and or Chelsea he gets a loss or losses he might walk... I think he just has to give the players more freedom and bench players like Mata and Fellaini as they make our play a lot more predictable and slow...
I agree with VG when he says a change in manager now will not bring instant success. I am also becoming impatient but I want to see how the performance is and results in the next 2 games before I can say he must walk. I do feel for him to an extent as some of the players we have are cowards who hide behind the manager's faults but let's see what happens.
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Post by matt on Dec 19, 2015 20:42:02 GMT
I am not sure changing the manager now is the right solution. LVG has done many good things so far, and his job isn't complete. The problem is that he looks like refusing any change or slight adjustment to his philosophy, his game plan, his system, etc.
What we have now is clearly not working, and yet this is the same boring, over-cautious football week in week out, with no directness, no fluidity, no aggressivity. For me, what's worrying is that LVG won't try something else, won't DARE to move away from HIS way. And the most worrying remains the lack of desire among the players as Jamie said: clearly, they're no longer playing for LVG, either because they won't or can't. Something must change, there is no way around it. I am not necessarily for LVG sacking (although I would do it), but if the Dutchman refuses to adapt, try something else, go to the touchline, motivate his players, and recreate a team spirit, there is no other way but to say goodbye.
What I personally believe now is that we should end our collaboration with him, because it looks to me he has brought us as far as he could in this league with those players (which he has chosen himself) as he doesn't seem capable of accepting his wrongs. It looks like we will keep playing that style, those players, regardless of form, results, etc. and that isn't acceptable. We need to rebuild a team spirit, we need a new captain, a new attitude, a new desire. We do have enough players able to win this league, but we haven't yet found the man who will inspire this crop and get them to play at their best, playing on everyone's strength, building an identity, rather than blindly imposing a system on everyone, that is moreover not working.
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Post by matt on Dec 19, 2015 20:44:52 GMT
I agree with VG when he says a change in manager now will not bring instant success I agree with that part as well. But are we really after success at this stage? Or are we after proper rebuilding even if that means a few disappoiting results at times but at least with passion & hunger? After reclaiming an identity? after recreating a team spirit and give everyone the desire to achieve big things? Making United looks liek the place to be as a player again? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 21:10:47 GMT
This is our 3rd year of rebuilding since Fergie left and it's taking too long which is mainly the fault of the board for employing Moyes in the first place. Money matters and the board will want someone to bring instant success if they do sack LVG, that doesn't mean winning the league in today's footballing world though, it will mean making sure we finish in the top 4 and stay in the Champions League.
Which is why I'm starting to genuinely believe we will have Mourinho as our manager by the end of this season. He wouldn't fuck about. He'd come in play the best players in their best positions, buy the players we need and get results, I'm almost certain of it.
Football has changed, we'd all love to believe we could be a dominant force in this league again and do it by bringing through a raft of quality youth players but I don't think it's possible anymore. Everyone has too much money now and when they have an unsuccessful season they just chuck cash at it to make sure they're back the season after. If we piss about too long we'll get left behind. Time to accept to stay at the top we're going to have to employ similar tactics to our rivals, get a top manager in who more or less guarantees results.
Whether we like Mourinho, his way or his tactics. He gets results and wins trophies. Along with Pep he's one of the 2 elite managers in world football today. You can't question his passion and he generally (besides this season) gets his teams playing with huge spirit and passion.
We could be the right club for him. He's always had an air about him that he's bigger than Chelsea, he's made them who they are today, which he'd actually have a point on. If he came to us I don't think he'd have that same feeling of being superior. Not with Fergie in his ear telling him how he HAS to behave and represent the club.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 21:15:04 GMT
By the way this isn't me insisting we sack LVG and employ Mourinho. Just that I wouldn't be against it. I personally think LVG will make sure we finish top 4 if he stays but I think most managers would, especially with further recruitment in January. It's clear nobody sees him having much of a future here beyond this season now.
I just think it's pointless keeping someone who has clearly not got the complete backing of the players.
We'll see over these next 2 games anyway (if he's still here). If the players want to play for him we'll get results at Stoke and at home to Chelsea. If we lose them both then I think he'll almost certainly be shown the door.
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Post by Hammy on Dec 19, 2015 22:10:52 GMT
There's no doubting the pedigree of both VG and Mourinho because of the trophies they've won between them but personally I don't think either of them are suited to manage United. Both are egotistical control freaks. Both put more emphasis on results rather than playing football. Both have had problems with team players. Both have had problems with club hierarchy. Both have had problems with media. They are clones of each other.
VG has never looked like he's had the full support of the players. Mourinho in his last 2 clubs has been ousted by his own players which speaks volumes of their character. Talk about jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.
The club can't afford to make another mistake and I really do think taking on mourinho would be too big a risk. Now isn't the time to bring the circus to town. Which we all know will happen if he takes over. I do like Mourinho as a character because he is entertaining but I just wouldn't want to see him being entertaining at our expense. If it came to it I'd much rather see Giggs take over than Mou because I think we'd have a much better chance at stability something I feel is much more important than a quick fix.
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Post by matt on Dec 19, 2015 22:24:30 GMT
I don't know if Mourinho is the right solution though. I'd say it's a 50% chance of huge success, and 50% of complete failure. It would very much depend on the relation he can build up with the players.
Obviously I don't know what happens behind the scene, but it doesn't look to me that LVG is close to the players, not close enough for sure. We do not look like a solid unit, with a common purpose and a strong team spirit. For all his tactical awareness and his philosophy, LVG is failing to build up a desire. Those smaller teams are showing so much more hunger, so much more passion as a unit.
Hence why I am worried: is Mourinho capable of building that team spirit, that common purpose to generate a desire among the team? I think he can, he has done it in the past, but he has also be a problematic manager in that regard, leaving clubs in chaotic situations with a weakened dressing room. The problem with Mourinho is that it's always make or break when it comes to relationship. You either feel well and build up solid long-term relationships (Terry, Materrazzi to name a few), or he will kick you out with little respect.
I can't believe we would sack LVG now and would have missed on the chance to get Klopp, it's just unthinkable. Pep would be the ideal candidate, but if we appoint someone else, it's because we know he is going to City or Chelsea or elsewhere. No matter who comes in next, I think we need an excellent manager who will be able to master that dressing room and inspire the lads. And as controversial as he might have been, Mourinho is capable of doing that. The problem is that he is very capable of doing the exact opposite as well.
I think players like Smalling, Jones, Schneiderlin, Herrera, Valencia,... would flourish under Mourinho. Those players who will give you everything on the pitch, always aggressive, regardless of their form or quality. That's the type of players Mourinho likes. But the current Rooney and Mata would struggle imo.
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