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Post by Hammy on Jan 24, 2015 6:35:12 GMT
Just came in from the night shift and seen some moron posted on Facebook that we drew 0-0 with Cambridge. It's got to be a joke, right?
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Post by StrikerMo on Jan 24, 2015 9:30:48 GMT
according to most Yeovil was bad because we played 3 at the back, so what was the excuse tonight as we played a 4-1-2-1-2 with players in correct positions. Oh they'll come up with something, I'm sure.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 9:38:53 GMT
Without a doubt, seen some incredibly stupid comments after the game last night from someone saying sack him and give the job to Giggsy to someone else actually saying it's his own fault for sticking with the 3-5-2.......
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Post by StrikerMo on Jan 24, 2015 10:07:05 GMT
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Post by matt on Jan 24, 2015 11:14:34 GMT
To be fair, we're seeing the same flaws week in week out. Part of the blame goes to the players, part of it to LVG as well. But something that truly strikes me, beyond all the fair and unfair comments you see everwhere, is our lack of players able to take the game by the scruff of the neck.
You take Rojo: he has his flaws, but deep down you know he is 100% commited and will give it all and try his best to outplay anyone who comes at him. That's the type of profile we miss in key areas. If every player showed the same spirit as he did yesterday and since he came back, we would be walking past many teams with ease. The same can be said about Herrera: some flaws in his game, some misplaces passes here and there because he tries hard at times, but you know he will battle it out for 90min and offer solutions and drive.
It's fine to have great players like Carrick who reads the game like no one, but for every Carrick I believe you need a Rojo or an Herrera whose runs and tenacity will help balance the side properly. LVG obviously wants the best players, but sometimes the best players don't form the best team, especially in English football. That's something SAF completely understood like no one else, and something LVG may not catch completely yet. Shaw is supposedly a better LB than Young, yet this season I'd take Young any day, as he has been very good in LVG's system and a lot more lively and aggressive. It's strange to say, but we played better without Di Maria in the side as we had an unbeaten-for-11 ride.
Am I saying we should drop the likes of Shaw and Di Maria ? Of course not, the manager's role is to find a way to accomodate them to get the best out of them. But I think the team would benefit if we could add a few more players in Rojo's or Herrera's or Valencia-of-a-few-year-back's profile: not the best, not overly expensive, but who will never make it easy for the opposition and battle it out like pro, harassing the opposition and leaving more space for the Di Maria's to take advantage of.
Right now the side is unbalanced, because we're trying too hard to have 11 perfect players. How about we drop that "philosophy" and have the perfectly balanced team? All we lack imo are a couple of more aggressive and industrious players. It doesn't mean we have to go for sub-standard players, just adapt the view of the players we're looking for and our on-pitch philosophy.
That's also one of the reasons I was so pissed at letting Welbeck go: he would never have become the world n°1 striker, but he offered combativity, power, unselfishness and a ruthless attitude that a RVP will never offer. My only fear with Van Gaal is that he keeps splashing cash on perfect players instead of going for the right profiles. Tactically & football-wise, I trust him completely, but in terms of spotting those industrious players with the perfect mind set to make the side unplayable, I have to say I truly miss SAF.
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Post by StrikerMo on Jan 24, 2015 11:39:29 GMT
How about we drop that "philosophy" and have the perfectly balanced team?You're saying you think part of his philosophy is for us to be unbalanced?
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Post by Nemanja79 on Jan 24, 2015 11:48:44 GMT
I said couple of months back that the formation isn't problem and I was right. Yes, some players can't adapt to the new conditions (new style of play, new system, new way of thinking etc) but isn't that their problem if anything? Professionals like them should be learning a lot quicker but it seems that the same ones doesn't have the right mental qualities. Some are just dumb and some simply don't have required football attributes to succeed in aforementioned conditions.
In this match, like in some before this season we've seen again a large acres of space between them. Central defenders are shit scared to push up (except Rojo), central midfielders taking more advanced positions in a build up phase, avoiding the ball and when 30-40 yards from opposition goal with the ball, they don't take more risks and just playing it safe, sideways and backwards. I think it's more due to manager's instructions but the problem is there is no chemistry and understanding between them and that's why we're seeing such boring and slow football.
Some players are simply not good enough for this to work and needs replacing.
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Post by Nemanja79 on Jan 24, 2015 11:50:43 GMT
How about we drop that "philosophy" and have the perfectly balanced team?You're saying you think part of his philosophy is for us to be unbalanced? As I have understood Louie, perfectly balanced team is the biggest and most important part of "philosophy". What do you mean Matt?
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Post by matt on Jan 24, 2015 12:29:27 GMT
How about we drop that "philosophy" and have the perfectly balanced team?You're saying you think part of his philosophy is for us to be unbalanced? Of course not. What I am saying is that I feel like LVG is trying to implement his philosophy too perfectly, but with "little" end-product. He is longing for perfection in every department and player, forgetting sometimes the basics of football. I just think Van Gaal should adapt his philosophy to the English game a little bit. I think it would do us the world of good to have a few more physical players, who would offer better mobility and solidity. That's all, and I have been saying that for many years, under SAF already. I am not saying let's play it the Stoke way and buy Tiote, I am saying get a few more players in Rojo's profile (especially in CM), who will be able to drive the team forward. We already have quality/creative and inspirational players, but we lack the legs and stamina of a Schneiderlin/Strootman/Nainggolan for instance. But hey, English football is new for him too, I don't blame him at all. In fact, I am glad we have a better tactitian in charge now and it has showed already that we look more organised. But even the great LVG will have to adjust to get us at our best. I just hope his stubborness doesn't come in the way. That's how I feel about him and his "philosophy" now.
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Post by matt on Jan 24, 2015 12:32:01 GMT
You're saying you think part of his philosophy is for us to be unbalanced? As I have understood Louie, perfectly balanced team is the biggest and most important part of "philosophy". What do you mean Matt? I mean that LVG's "philosophy" is contradictory at the minute. He wants balance, but it's his very philosophy that is breaking our balance right now imo. Not playing Herrera for whatever reason is an example of that. As I said in my post above, my opinion is that LVG will have to adjust his philosophy a little to suit the demands of English football, or he won't find his desired balance and his end-product.
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Post by Nemanja79 on Jan 24, 2015 12:52:27 GMT
What he needs to find and implement is balance between his perfect, scientific, tactically packed approach and mental/emotional set of his team. Sometimes he is too rigid for his own sake and some of his players suffers under such circumstances. I think that he would like to allow more freedom to some players but for some reason (I believe it's a mix of pure quality and mindset of some) he can't do that just yet.
The big problem with him (and always was) is his pride and stubbornness, but not in a same way as Fergie's. Players who played under Fergie find it hard to transform van Gaal's ideas onto effective outcome because of a totally different approach. Sometimes it feels like he wants to build a space shuttle but has hired a car mechanics to do the job. He needs to find a balance between that right now, until we transform into something completely different than what we were in the last 25 or so years.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 13:11:25 GMT
I mean that LVG's "philosophy" is contradictory at the minute. He wants balance, but it's his very philosophy that is breaking our balance right now imo. Not playing Herrera for whatever reason is an example of that. As I said in my post above, my opinion is that LVG will have to adjust his philosophy a little to suit the demands of English football, or he won't find his desired balance and his end-product. Funny, I just said as much in the LVG thread. He's not a stupid man, he can be stubborn as hell....but he's not stupid. it's a pattern we've seen at virtually every club (in particular AZ) he's been in charge of. It'll take a busy Summers worth of ins and outs to get things right. He should now have a crystal clear idea of what the English games demands are.
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Post by Hammy on Jan 24, 2015 16:44:17 GMT
Without the risk of sounding like a broken record but what exactly is VGs philosophy? Since the Leicester defeat all I'm seeing is a manager/team shit scared to try anything imaginative for fear of a repeat and we are now set up in such a way that week after week we witness boring, unimaginative anti football that is against our values as a club. Excuses cannot be made for performances we have seen against Yeovil and Cambridge. In fact I'd go as far as to say it's a fucking embarrassment. It still wouldn't be an excuse if we fielded a weakened team but we didn't even do that. On paper we have world class forwards but using them like cart horses is so obviously detrimental to the team that even my 6 year old nephew can see it. Football is an easy game. Play to your strengths. Having players like Falcao or RVP defending almost in our own box in open play just should not be happening. Leaving out one of our most imaginative players in Herrera shouldn't be happening, continually playing with Fellaini when he's fit shouldn't be happening, playing Mata in a more defensive role than attacking shouldn't be happening, playing Di Maria as a forward/winger shouldn't be happening, playing Rooney as CM shouldn't be happening. Jones playing full stop shouldn't be happening (and WTF is this with him taking corners?) I've heard the players should shoulder a large part of the blame for recent performances. Last season I heard the same but the blame was quickly thrown on Moyes for not motivating his players. Why should VG escape the fall out when it's up to him and his staff to motivate and organise their team and at least get us playing some sort of football, not this shit we are witnessing at the minute. One of SAFs greatest strengths was getting the best out of his players. Many people won't agree with me but the last time we won the league I'd say it was with one of the worst sides ever to win it. We only had 3 players in form, RVP, Rafa and Carrick but SAF still managed to bet blood out of a stone. Something that VG doesn't seem to have in his locker.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 17:03:56 GMT
Without the risk of sounding like a broken record but what exactly is VGs philosophy? Working with the head primarily, before they even get onto the training pitch and playing a competitive league match. As Mark Hughes pointed out after Stoke getting a philosophy over to every player doesn't happen overnight. It's about how he wants them to think about the game and putting that thinking into practice and making them more efficient, aware footballers to start with before they kick a ball. .................my only reservation about all that is it should be instilled into the youth system where it would be more beneficial rather than forcing a change in mental approach upon fully fledged adult players, particularly British based ones who don't understand anything outside there own culture a lot of the time. Although Ashley Young is thriving on the change in head input. They'll all get there eventually but VG can't expect to snap his fingers and see a sea change in all players overnight and neither should anyone else.
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Post by Hammy on Jan 24, 2015 17:55:33 GMT
Good explanation Ed but for me this is one of the reasons why if he doesnt adapt quickly I don't think VG will work out. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said about experienced players having to change their game to suit VGs "philosophy" Football is all about confidence but how can players be confident when forced to play a system completely alien to them? What must 2 of the best strikers in the world in RVP and Falcao be thinking when they're forced to be in our own half as much as in the oppositions? Mata in his first few seasons in English football had the most assists in the league and scored his fair share of goals. Now we're seeing a player running around like a headless chicken and looking average at best. We spent £60+m on Di Maria only to have him play as a winger or forward where he's very average at best. One of our most creative players in Herrera starts from the bench week after week. If I was him I'd seriously be considering my future at United, the same as arguably one of our most exciting talents in Januzaj. A new manager cannot come in like a sergeant major and say it's my way or no way. As you say at youth level he could but lot of our first team players are already moulded into top players. Why should VG try and change their style of play when in their proper positions they can do a more than adequate job? It's all well and good a new manager coming in and try to instill his style of play but it has to work both ways. If VG isn't prepared to show he's flexible then for me there's only one outcome and it isn't good for anyone.
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