I wouldn't mind a striker as well, I just find it difficult to think of someone who fits the profile .. so alright we have Rooney, who's the senior player, Martial who's going to be the future (or are we keeping him for a wide player?), then Rashford and hopefully even another youngster like Fletcher for next season. So the way I figure it we're going to need someone that is experienced, but would not necessarily be first choice. I'd also like him to be a tall and physical kind of striker - someone that can use his head, someone more or less like Costa. Aaaaand I just described Ibrahimovic.
Post by fergiegiveusawave on Apr 7, 2016 19:15:36 GMT
I genuinely think Martial may develop more as a wide player or just an all round attacker. Rashford for me looks a real out and out striker. I actually wouldn't be against going back to a 4-4-2 either and having them both play as strikers. It's coming back and becoming more successful again. Styles of play and formations come and go on a regular basis and a few teams have shown this season that playing 2 up top successfully is doable.
What you need to have for it to work is a quality midfield and wingers. I think Schneiderlin and Herrera fit the bill of a perfect 2 man midfield but the wide men aren't upto scratch. If Memphis can find his form of PSV then no doubt he's one of the men. Lingard as the other but we could do with a world class guy if we did go down this route.
If we stick with 1 up front with this group of players then I think the combination we have now is the best possible at the club.
I don't know, I think the 442 is a little too rigid and doesn't give you a lot of options when it comes to moving players around. I feel like we'd be struggling to fit in Mata and Lingard on the right side, Martial and Memphis on the left, we'd need to buy a bunch more players that can fit into that mould... It seems like this one right now works both in the PL and Europe, so I'd rather stick to it.
Agree that Rashford is the classic 9 and I think it works to our advantage that Martial can play in any forward position really. I'd still love to see him in a 433, but that probably won't happen any time soon.
Midfield for me is the biggest issue - like you said Schneiderlin and Herrera are fine, but if we're going to be competing on (hopefully) a few fronts the two of them won't be enough. And I don't know how much we'd be able to trust Carrick and Bastian. Do we pick a kid to fill in, do we get someone?...
Post by fergiegiveusawave on Apr 7, 2016 19:48:26 GMT
Lingard Herrera Schneiderlin Memphis
Martial the one slightly deeper. Memphis isn't ideal for this formation because he's got to put the work in and for the most part he hasn't shown a great workrate why he's been here. Lingard is perfect as he's full of energy and won't stop running all day. Herrera is the Scholesy type creative midfielder who can also put his foot in and you'd want Schneiderlin to grow a pair and become a Keano type which I actually think he possesses the footballing ability to do but hasn't shown the mentality yet.
No doubt it's risky as hell but it'd be exciting.
Still, the number 1 formation for me is 4-3-3. This is how my ideal team lines up next season.
Varela Smalling Blind Shaw
Herrera (new midfielder, Barkley for me or possibly even Rooney )
4-4-2 works for leicester in a very defensive, counter attacking way. Not what I want us to play. You will need 2 CM who can carry the burden of defending AND attacking. So you need two zop-class midfielder like Pogba & Modric for example. Then CM ist an area where we are rather weak.
Then the LM and RM need to track back a lot and keep midfield thight. Depay hasn't shown so far he can do that.
I am not totally against 4-4-2 but it doesn't suit our squad. As mentioned Mata wouldn't fit in there at all.
4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 is the way forward for me.
De Gea Darmian-Smalling-STONES-Shaw Herrera-Schneiderlin-GÜNDOGAN GRIEZMANN-Martial-Memphis
De Gea Darmian-Smalling-STONES-Shaw Schneiderlin-GÜNDOGAN GRIEZMANN-Rooney-Memphis Martial
Post by fergiegiveusawave on Apr 8, 2016 7:54:37 GMT
So Kante and Drinkwater are 2 top class midfielders, comparable to Pogba and Modric after 1 good season? I think the profiles of both Schneiderlin and Herrera would work as a 2 man midfield in a 4-4-2. They have a great balance between attack and defence, both have energy and can play football. No doubt we're lacking a winger on current evidence but you just never know what Memphis will turn up next season..
And the 4-2-3-1 is just a variation on a 4-4-2 anyway. 2 wingers with one forward playing just behind the other.
I'm definitely in favour the 4-3-3 as I have been all season and can't quite understand why LVG has completely abandoned it despite it producing our best results last season and him buying the perfect players to fit into it. But I'd like to think of ways to get Martial/Rashford playing as a front 2 as I really think they could strike up a hell of a partnership and be pretty devastating.
What about the 4-2-2-2 he played against Watford earlier in the season? I actually think that formation worked really well and Memphis produced one of his best performances to date. Get Shaw back at left back with Varela on the right to provide the width. Look something like this:
No, Kante and Drinkwater are obviously not compareable but they are good when you want to play deep and defend and hit the opponent on the counter. United wants to play attacking football and domate midfield. Thats a big difference!
I also disagree regarding the systems. The 4-2-3-1 operates with a playmaker whereas in 4-4-2 the responsibility for creativity is solely with the 2 CM's.
I agree 4-3-3 to be the best for us, as I think in most games 1 defensive mid is enough. Its just a question, if we want to include a no.10 like Mata or Rooney to go for 4-2-3-1 or when we need more defensive stability, in an CL away match for example.
4-2-2-2 or the diamond, which have seen also, don't have enough width imo. Could work when the two striker drift out wide a lot.
If it was up to me I'd be going for the 352. Shaw/Blind/CBJ and Valencia/Darmian/Varela as wingbacks. Might need to add a CB in this case, and then you'd be able to play both Martial and Rashford and would also be able to give young midfielders a chance - like Pereira, and even put Lingard in there.
But yeah, ultimately the 433 has been the one where we've had our best performances so I don't understand why Van Gaal persists with 4231...I understand when we had 20000 injuries, but now with an almost fit squad it seems a waste
Post by fergiegiveusawave on Apr 8, 2016 9:13:48 GMT
He's barely played it all season. Just baffles me. The one thing we were missing from our 4-3-3 last season was that quality ball winning holding midfielder. He signs one, doesn't play 4-3-3 and hasn't played him nearly enough either, often preferring Fellaini and/or Carrick over him.
3-5-2 didn't work for us so far but it is an upcoming tactic in recent years. works well with the right players like Alaba for example.
quick defenders with an eye for a pass. Blind lacks the pace, otherwise he'd be suited to play that. Also very good wide players are needed who can attack and defend. Think we do not have that. Shaw maybe if he improves on the attacking side.
There are so many things we don't understand with Louis, not playing 4-3-3 and playing Fellaini ahead of Schneiderlin is just the tip of the iceberg.
Agree with germanc, it's simple and it suits the way Leicester play, hitting on the counter, playing quickly between the lines and their back four generally stay in a line with the full backs hanging back so they can get into back to shape quickly. Top clubs at the moment tend to play 433/4231 variations with the midfielder dropping back, so the full backs can both push on supplying the width as the wide men tend to cut inside increasing the number of bodies getting forward. They don't dominate possession which top clubs should aim to do but 442 has worked for us in the past so maybe.
I don't think we have the wingers for it myself, in terms of playing both Martial and Rashford, I'm not a fan of three at the back so 4312 or 442 diamond for me. Given we don't have proper wingers at the moment I'm not sure why we haven't tried it - probably because of a lack of threat from the full backs - or as you say that 4222 that we played against Watford.
Post by fergiegiveusawave on Apr 8, 2016 12:05:11 GMT
Yeah as it stands there's no doubt the wingers we have haven't proved themselves capable of playing in a 4-4-2. Plenty of teams are proving that dominating possession isn't the be all and end all though.
As I said styles in football come and go on a regular basis and for me, besides Barca and Bayern there's no other top team that is too convincing with dominant possession. Just look at Wolfsburg v Madrid on Wednesday and even Barca v Madrid last weekend.
Powerful and quick direct attacking football is what we were always about and the style I find most exciting to watch and to be honest the style that suits the Premier League more than anything. Obviously the better sides tend to dominate possession anyway so in most games we had more possession under Fergie but we were not afraid to relinquish possession as we were so devastating on the counter. Some of my favourite United performances and even some of the best United goals of the past have come when playing on the counter.
I definitely think we should experiment with narrower formations in the summer as I do believe there's the potential at this club to be able to play that way effectively because in Luke Shaw we have one of the best attacking left backs around. Varela has shown great quality going forward as well, although he's still a little suspect defensively. We've got a top quality holding mid to anchor the midfield in Schneiderlin. We have a number of players capable of playing at the tip of a diamond effectively as well which would just leave us needing to find a mobile, aggressive partner for Herrera to play in between the 2. Even try out the likes of Lingard or even Rooney there. Then you've got the speed of the front 2, who will run the channels all day.
Plenty of options out there, even with the squad we have now. Which highlights the biggest problem with the manager for me, the fact that we've been poor all season yet he's not had the bottle to try anything different. And when he did, like the Watford game, which I actually thought we played quite well in, we never see it again.